Trains: How to make a service train?

[JoshLittle]

Finally I decided to go into trains. After a ridicules long time with some game crashes I worked together a bluprint of a functioning intersection and testes loading and unloading for copper ore. Stations and signals are working. Everything fine so far.

But: The only real usage (for me) for a train system would be the possibility to manage my defense sections. I want to bring there the stuff which is needed (like walls, repair pack etc.) and take back the stuff that is reade for transporting to the base. Like Oil barrels, stuff from a single mining drill...

I noticed that the wagons are more or less one big chest (with not so many stacks in it as I thought). I hoped to find a possibility to use the first wagon for all the service stuff. But without any (direct) control of the stacks it is not possible to load the train with only a stack of turrets, two stacks of repair packs, two stacks of walls .... The unloading can be done with smart inserters. That is not the problem. But the loading.

What are your solutions for this? Do you use a whole wagon for on type of item? Do you don't care how it is loaded? Do you use multiple one-wagon-trains?

I think the only way to have control over the stacks would be a system in the loading station that prefills the loading chests with the amount that is wanted and uses logic gates for the next wave. And before a service train is loaded he has to be unloaded completely.

[micomico]

You can set filters on the slots of the wagon by middle-clicking, just like on your hotbar. You can reserve space for specific stuff that way.

[JoshLittle]

Thank you.

In the toolbelt I make heavy use of it, but that is one of the simple things that wasn't intentionally enough for me with the trains. I guess because I expirienced it not for chests yet - because it is not working for chests.

[GewaltSam]

Before filtering was possible, I connected all my outposts with a green wire which lead to my central station. Then I told the smart inserters which loaded my supply train to only load when specific material is below X. That way, the service train only loaded stuff when something was missing in the outposts. They got only some material in their chests so they won't fill the wagon to the brim with, say, solar panels.

Now, I told some smart inserters in the outposts to only unload specific material when the amount there was below X (I did this with a red wire). It worked, even better after I put down an unloading station in my central base to simply completely clear the supply train (it could get problematic without this). I also configured it so the train would stop there for a few minutes, so it wasn't riding around empty all the time.
Worked like a charm, but was a bitch to set up and get right. I was pretty proud though when I did it.

The filter system makes things much easier now

[DerivePi]

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=8&t=4842

This is still a work in progress - the gist is that a train identifies itself to the import station using a stack of unique items (usually wood or sometimes I use standard Ammo). If a train has 1, 2, 3 or 4 wood, the import station counts it and then triggers a gate which lets the export station load material for outpost 1, 2, 3 or 4. The material to be loaded is selected with the use of smart inserters and a smart chest that is uplinked to the outpost smart chest. For each type of item (wall, laser, destroyer, etc...) there is one smart inserter for each station.

[JoshLittle]

I decided to do it like this:

• The first wagon of every train is for service material (repair packs, walls, turrets).
• A dedicated type of service train has only one and drives to every station that contains only a roboport for the protection of the wall.
• One stack of the wagon is coal. Every station grabs coal into a provider and has a requester beside it so the train is refilled at every station. I know that coal can be replaced with solid fuel for longer usage of a stack, but after I don't burn any coal for power and also after pushing plastic to 150k I still have a lot of coal and don't know what to do with it. So the coal is the my only fuel for the trains. It is not really nessacary to refuel at every station, but I wanted to try the concept and it works well.
• After a lot of the stacks are not really needed I decided to implement oil into every service wagon. A dedicated oil train has a second wagon with half the stacks for every barrel type, but I have way more oil sites to connect to make use of that single train.
• A third type of train has two additional wagons for every ore that is mined. So the logic is simple: Every station uses the first wagon for service and grabs what is needed. Everything that has to be delivered to the base is pushed into wagon 2 and 3 (or more if needed) and is unloaded completely at the base (see picture)

[ssilk]

What you used with your first wagon I reamed up to the absolute limit!

I have a supply loading station, supply train(s) and supply unloading stations at my outposts. The supply train follows then a supply-route to fill every outpost.

For those who wants to try that: I made me a small "test track" for that, cause my first try was a total failure (the pure number of items is a mess): I created two logistic networks (base and test) and a track between all. The loading station I keeped but the unloading station was only temporary and from the output chests I put everything on a belt, which was transported back into the base logistic network to keep the amount of items for testing small but realistic.

The supply station simply requests every type of needed material (about 50 requester chests, for each type of item one chest). Walls, repair packs, everything on your list. But also: more tracks, inserters, belts, ammunition (no weapons), locos, wagons, cars, chests, miners (!), furnaces (for outposts, where the combination of ressources "cries" for creating electric circuits, logistic/construction bots and much, much more.

The base-station puts the needed items into the wagons of the supply train (with blue inserters). I watched a bit, that the stuff, which is needed in high quantities (straight tracks, belts, walls for example), are the chests/inserters in the middle of the wagon, cause the inserters on the edge of the wagons cannot fill the wagin in the same speed as the center-inserters! The insertion limit is just set by the wagon stack-reservation (you need to reserver every stack). So I can transport only full stacks of anything.

The supply train are two locos and 5 wagons. Two locos to speed it really up and 5 wagons, cause of the needed number of material. It costs me some days to find out, how many wagons/locos needed (not really everything is needed, but for example they also transport a small amount of iron/steel/copper to be able to craft the things you don't have).

The train is filled in under 15 seconds and drives then from outpost to outpost, where the needed material is unloaded. This is symmetrical to the loading, but the unloading is made by smart inserters, with set filters and logistic-network-limitation.


The whole programming/configuring tooks a lot of time (I think in whole about 10 hours, cause I think nobody has tried that in that dimensions before), but with this I can fill the storage of the outpost to the needed amount of items and I don't need to make long wires to tell what the outpost needs.

My next goal is to make that in the other direction: So when I unmount the empty miners I want the surplus to be transported back to my main factory. I think to a second unsupply-train with unsupply-stations at the outposts and a main-unsupply station at my base.

What was great:
- It really works. Once everything was installed I just need to bring my supply train to a fresh created outpost (nothing then tracks), unload some solar panels and a accus, to have power, then place a roboport, fill with construction bots and then use my blueprint to create a new supply-unload-station. Then drive to that station and unload the needed materials and send the train back to it's normal route (adding the new outpost in the list of course) and meanwhile I can begin to place all the blueprints and stuff. The bots built as they have material and when new items comes in and I can leave for the next outpost.
- This is so phun, if it works. You can built up things so far away, that it takes some minutes to drive to that outpost by train. But it really works and when you come back you see, how your factory is working for all the stuff that was "ordered" by the outpost.
- This enables for the first time a gameplay, where you don't care much about the distances. Just make a track.

What bugs me with this:
- The extreme afford of this. It takes nearly an hour or so to "programm" all the wagons, it takes another hour to create the supply-main-station and also an hour to create one supply-outpost (this can then be blueprinted). You cannot to an inserter "If enough place left: Load that many stuff of this, that many of that etc." and you need for every type of item an requester chest, wagon-stack and smart inserter. And one little mistake
- I cannot copy a train. This is really time-consuming. I whish something like a blueprint.
- One stupid mistake can block the whole supply line (or better: an item of a wagon). And of course there are other stupid errors, for example forgetting to load the train with coal.

Suggestions:
- I wish a lot longer ghost-time (or endless?) for the building of blueprints. It takes eventually some time to transport all the needed items to the outpost.
- I wish also a, that there is something I can "order". For example ordering 200 storage chests, cause I need that many, but in the train are only 50 and it will take 3 turns of the supply train to deliver all.
- It is currently not possible to use a train (or better a wagon) for both directions. Either the stuff is loaded at A and unloaded at B, C, D or vice versa, but both directions at the same time with the same station is not possible (ok, only if you mix the wagons, like in the above post, but that is not, what I mean).
- I whish a loco and/or wagons, that have an included temporary power-supply, roboport, track-layer. The automatic track-layer mod is really a fine beginning for playing with that.



The target of all this afford?
Well I want to play together, but not too near to other players ("this is my claim"). I want to support the other player. Or even fight him, if I don't like him. In all other strategy game this will lead to a rush-strategy without pre-warning. But with enough distance between the players (I think to minimum 1000 tiles) it will make a rush strategy impossible (cause the chance to find him is so low, because of all this distance and the ability to bring everything needed in time in his reach, without recognizing of him, also). For that type of (slow?) gaming I need to have outposts, supply and all that stuff.


EDIT: I think next week I will make an article about that world, cause I have also some interesting other concepts, then I'll also provide saves.

[JoshLittle]

With my service wagon I wanted to make shure that the protection can be held on even if I reduce to half of the roboports at the borders (so only green-areas are touching). For now every train is still within my borders so I was never building an outpost.

I also made a manual version of what you did, but really only for the basic start (rails, ...).

How do you lay your rails (without mods)? Manually or with mobile/stepping forward roboports? How much do you have to care for protection of the construction site? Do you use one or two lines?

I mean this one mod makes it a bit too easy (driving high speed and laying the rails just-in-moment no matter how many trees are in the way.. cool, but wtf? ). A simple possibility to drive in the train and to be able to use deconstruction for the trees, or to use blueprints for intersections would be just fine. And also a real mobile roboport. In summary a bit like a TBM

[ssilk]

How do you lay your rails (without mods)? Manually or with mobile/stepping forward roboports? How much do you have to care for protection of the construction site? Do you use one or two lines?

Ok, good questions.
When I don't use the raillayer-mod (famous mod!), I go into the train, place the track before me, hold the mouse-button and begin to drive with the train. You can do this also with the car, but it's much more coordination needed. For straight rail this is ok, until you come to forest, or remaining alien eggs.

How do I protect my trains? Simple answer: not.
The biters do not fight the tracks, signals etc. until they are in their reach of their villages. Otherwise they will go straight to the most polluting "target" and they fight only walls, lasers, etc. not the tracks etc. (they destroy that, if they are finished with the priority targets and something else is in reach). That can also be seen, if you use the debug mode (F4) and search for something like "paths": If they cross a track they will ignore it (until it is far enough away from their destination).

So all I need to do is to take care, that left an right besides my tracks are no biters. I place solar powered radar stations to make that sure. I normally do also not enclose me within walls (only in the beginning). I just place laser-stations (within walls), to cover the most of my area. If I loose something, the biter will move and at any time they come into the reach of the lasers. Only the station itself is highly protected (cause if I loose that it will go bad), all other stuff will be replaced by the construction bots.

I use of course two lines, cause as you can imagine, the waiting time for a rail with 1000 tiles length is otherwise much too long and the biggest problem is, that it takes 20 seconds for the train to accellerate to it's full speed (and that full speed is really needed!). So passing-tracks are no option.

I mean this one mod makes it a bit too easy (driving high speed and laying the rails just-in-moment no matter how many trees are in the way.. cool, but wtf? ). A simple possibility to drive in the train and to be able to use deconstruction for the trees, or to use blueprints for intersections would be just fine. And also a real mobile roboport. In summary a bit like a TBM

I don't care that. I really like this mod and it is pure fun to make really long tracks with it.

[JoshLittle]

I tried a bit and for curves it was always too far away from inside the train.

If you need high speed, then you want to make as few curves as possible, or not? So I guess there has to be a time where you cut through a forest. Manually this is a pain. Even with roboports because they cover areas and not corridors.

But in this situation with roboports to cut through a forest, there is no protection needed? That a driving train is a threat for biters and not the other way around is a wide spread fact, but I thought they would go to a standing train.

[ssilk]

For curves it works for me. A bit tricky.

Curves currently don't slow down your train. I think this is looking ridiculous.
I would like to have curves with much bigger radius (currently a full circle is 12 tiles, I think to full circle with 100 tiles or so) and the smaller radius curves slows down the train speed to max. 50%.

Cutting through a forest manually is a plague! Without trackbuilder-mod I begun to temporary built roboports. :-/
But also a plague are remaining alien eggs, which also needs to be removed before placing manually (again with the mod no problem). I definitely need something, which pics that up automatically, or the disappear or they are breeded out. And sometimes you have really small space left, if you go through swampland or so... then I would like to make a bridge or so.

Protection needed? Well it depends on the distance. The roboport doesn't emit pollution. So it's never a target for the routing. But bots are priority targets and if the biters comes to the port by following a bot...

[JoshLittle]

But isn't a very wide curve just like a straight?

[ssilk]

It is much, much longer. Factorio handles only 45 degrees for train (which I mean is enough, if the curves where much bigger).

From the graphics: yes, it would make sense to have such a curve be built out of some smaller ones.

[JoshLittle]

I think it really depends on the situation. Inside a train station it would be nice to have a smaler degree to get a traverse in only 2 tiles instead of 4. and also bigger degrees to make slow turns. But on faster lines it is really a bit ridiculous that the trains are not slown down. If a train on a straight runs over speed 1 and can traverse in full speed to the other line and directly back to avoid a temporary mining site, in reality he just would have gone straight through it. This would be much nicer if inertia is just a bit more considered. It don't has to be a derailing, but the max. speed in corners has to have an influence. And if you want corners that allow bigger speeds, than there can be different types. But I the bigger the size of a curve the more problems to get it through a forest or even just to connect on a certain place in the grid. Perhaps a special curve builder would be what you want. define start, define end, initialise the request, "this costs x curved and y straight rails, agree?", you agree and then you have a specialiced curve for the place you need. After a deconstruction they could fall into the initial pieces for stacking somewhere.

[ssilk]

Yeah, in the end I don't want to built every piece of track, instead I want to take/draw/drag it like in OpenTTD. And then the algorithm tries to draw a possible straigt course. That is just a plan, a bit like the ghost buildings. Then a train builder can build the track. Either I steer it by hand or it runs automatically, however this might work...

[DRY411S]

I decided to do it like this:

Apologies for digging this topic up after so long.

I know there is a way of doing this, because I've done it, but I cannot remember how!

Let's say I put a repair pack in the first stack in the train, and then middle click to reserve that stack.
What is the key/mouse combination to copy that stack reservation and paste it into others?
Shift right-click to copy and then shift left-click for paste works on the whole wagon, but not for individual stacks.

[micomico]

Let's say I put a repair pack in the first stack in the train, and then middle click to reserve that stack.
What is the key/mouse combination to copy that stack reservation and paste it into others?

Keep the repair pack in your hand and just middle click all the slots you want. I think this only works for train wagons.

[Hannu]

Shift right-click to copy and then shift left-click for paste works on the whole wagon, but not for individual stacks.

It works also with individual slots at least when they are empty when pasting the filter.

[DRY411S]

Shift right-click to copy and then shift left-click for paste works on the whole wagon, but not for individual stacks.

It works also with individual slots at least when they are empty when pasting the filter.

So that was it thanks.

• Put something in a stack
• Middle click
• Take it out of the stack leaving just the 'ghost'
• Shift right click the 'ghost'
• Shift left click any empty stacks to paste the ghost