Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

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Turel
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Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by Turel »

TL;DR
A visually interesting and automated way to clear the map of biters.

What ?
I love Factorio to death, the building, the designing, all of it.
One thing i always point to as one of Factorio's strong points is it's QoL and attention to detail concerning all implemented systems.
(Ex. The depth of the blueprint system and all it's "extra" features, or the rail system)

And the freedom to choose a preferred way of dealing with things.
(Ex. You want bots? use bots! You want belts or trains? do that! All three? Spaghet or modular? Mama mia!)

That being said, there's a huge gaping hole staring at me every time i contemplate doing another run.
The inability to automate combat.

As far as I'm aware it is one of the few systems in place that does not follow the "manual --> semi manual --> automated" progression.
You might be stuffing the early furnaces by hand, but you're sure as hell not doing that after 10 hrs.
Furthermore the whole combat robot tree is criminally underused, the short lived capsules are a horrible implementation of a neat idea.

As this is THE main reason i dread playing another round of Factorio I would love to see this issue addressed.
I have looked around for mods to solve the issue and have found a measure of success.

The closest i have found is the "Robot army mod" by Kyranzor.

You essentially build dormant robots that you "wake up" near a mustering structure, once they hit the squad max size, the go off in that cardinal direction.
There's multiple tiers of robots, so they don't overwhelm the biters out of the gate, and as biter density goes up, the material cost to replace your army becomes a noteworthy reason to expand or up the production amounts.

The good:
Furthermore they explore the fog of war as they go allowing for some deep scouting and enjoyable carnage during the pondering awe moments of "down time" managing the factory.
the simple bot instructions also make it so the footprint on gam resources does not spiral out of control.

The bad:
This mod predates the move to high resolution textures however and the models stick out like a sore thumb.
The pathing is also pretty lackluster and bot groups regularly get "stuck" or unresponsive.

I'm aware there's other mods doing something similar, but cpu overhead is way too big for it's intended purpose. (AAI vehicles etc)

My suggestion:
Expand upon the groundwork already done by the vanilla devs and the work of the mod builder.

Either make new sleek looking Factorio ground army assets and use the fact the bots have to walk as a way to limit their usefulness balance wise.
OR
Rework the combat robotics to be usable in this context.


Maybe instead of a timer killing them, just make them live forever but also move forever away from the player... they will die eventually.
Maybe use this combat robotic rework as an opportunity to add defense and offense versions.
Defense to operate like the already present flying bots and offense to go scour the map.
Why ?
Automate EVERYTHING!
Yes at some point you have artillery, but they are limited to the rail network, and are a really big hammer in situations where a broom would suffice.
Yes at some point you have spidertrons, but at that point in the game your armor allows you to decimate nests too... but there are soooo many of them. pls lemme automate the majority of it, and only get involved if it's a particularly tough grouping the bots can't handle.

The robot army would fit in perfectly as multiple tiers would allow you to expand comfortably when needed but aren't a permanent solution as they require tech to keep being relevant.

The material cost might add a level of interesting tactical depth.
Weighing the benefits of producing bots vs pollution and subsequently more need (and losses) of bots, negating the material gains the land gains might yield.
Sounds like a nice game of "which tool would fits best here" which IMO really vibes with the core essence of Factorio.

TL:DR - Clearing biter nests gets boring, gimme a visually interesting automated way of dealing with it. o7

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by ChefOfRamen »

So help me understand what you're asking for… you want something that does the job of artillery (i.e. automating nest killing) but in a more visually interesting way?

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by FuryoftheStars »

ChefOfRamen wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:48 am
So help me understand what you're asking for… you want something that does the job of artillery (i.e. automating nest killing) but in a more visually interesting way?
I think that's what they're asking for, yes. The difference, of course, is that this other method can fail against a large enough of a nest (vs the size of the "robot army" sent out).

I'd kind of like something along this line, but a little more hands on than completely automated, maybe. I'd like a few rts like units and controls to be introduced so I can choose to have some backup with me and not be completely alone all the time. 😢 :lol:
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by Illiander42 »

There are so many mods for this...

One's even called "Robot Army."

There's also Total Automisation, and AAI Automation, depending on the level of effort you want to put into them.

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Illiander42 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:01 pm
There are so many mods for this...

One's even called "Robot Army."

There's also Total Automisation, and AAI Automation, depending on the level of effort you want to put into them.
Yeah, the OP specifically cited Robot Army as the inspiration of this request, and also mentioned others, like AAI.
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by mmmPI »

Turel wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 6:59 pm
A visually interesting and automated way to clear the map of biters.

TL:DR - Clearing biter nests gets boring, gimme a visually interesting automated way of dealing with it. o7
I don't know if it's fit for all factorio game, but one can use those two mods together :

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/SpidertronPatrols + https://mods.factorio.com/mod/lex-aircraft

It's easier to use than AAI vehicule and may be more efficient on UPS due to it being spidertron disguised as aircraft, depending on how efficient/bad is the AAI circuitry it can save a lot. It won't get stuck in landscape or search path for long time and is more automated than just using spidertrons remote. This would be more into the semi-manual than fully automated. But it is not boring to use :)

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by Turel »

ChefOfRamen wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:48 am
So help me understand what you're asking for… you want something that does the job of artillery (i.e. automating nest killing) but in a more visually interesting way?
Artillery requires expanding your rail network, and is limited by upgrades/built infrastructure.
It's also pretty late in the research tree. By that time i can just sprint through nests to kill them.

I'd like a low overhead, free roaming, visually entertaining way to automate clearing nests.
Where the potency of my outward push is dependent on the resource investment.
(Preferably useful from late early to end of game, or when you get spidertrons)

Robot army is near perfect conceptually. But as stated in the original post has some drawbacks in the form of :
- Pathing can break.
- Low res textures (the mod predates the visual update).
- It doesn't have that Wube spit-shine that i have come to love so dearly.

As it stands, you do not have a reliable way to clear out biter nests automatically until you reach arti/spidertrons.
It feels like the groundwork was put in, but ended up on the cutting floor. And then later paved over with late game alternatives.

With the limited useful implementation of combat robots in vanilla, a marriage of the 2 systems would be a dream come true.

Imagine the last jigsaw puzzle piece... but like... in your brain.... ;-)

Turel
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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by Turel »

mmmPI wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:44 pm
Turel wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 6:59 pm
A visually interesting and automated way to clear the map of biters.

TL:DR - Clearing biter nests gets boring, gimme a visually interesting automated way of dealing with it. o7
I don't know if it's fit for all factorio game, but one can use those two mods together :

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/SpidertronPatrols + https://mods.factorio.com/mod/lex-aircraft

It's easier to use than AAI vehicule and may be more efficient on UPS due to it being spidertron disguised as aircraft, depending on how efficient/bad is the AAI circuitry it can save a lot. It won't get stuck in landscape or search path for long time and is more automated than just using spidertrons remote. This would be more into the semi-manual than fully automated. But it is not boring to use :)
This does look interesting. Although it's not quite as free form or fire and forget as i would like XD
Ty for the imput though :)

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by Turel »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2024 1:37 am
ChefOfRamen wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:48 am
So help me understand what you're asking for… you want something that does the job of artillery (i.e. automating nest killing) but in a more visually interesting way?
I think that's what they're asking for, yes. The difference, of course, is that this other method can fail against a large enough of a nest (vs the size of the "robot army" sent out).

I'd kind of like something along this line, but a little more hands on than completely automated, maybe. I'd like a few rts like units and controls to be introduced so I can choose to have some backup with me and not be completely alone all the time. 😢 :lol:
't is indeed :)

I tend to shy away from the RTS elements since it's a very divided topic on these forums. :)

I'd be happy with a fire and forget option that uses the vanilla combat robotic visuals and animations.
There's so much potential there already!

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by Illiander42 »

Turel wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:26 am
Artillery requires expanding your rail network
It really doesn't.

You can build static artillery and feed them by any logistic method.

There's also mods that lets you put combat robots in your artillery shells. Combo that with an early artillery mod and an artillery reskin and you should have what you want.

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by Qon »

Illiander42 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:00 pm
Turel wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:26 am
Artillery requires expanding your rail network
It really doesn't.

You can build static artillery and feed them by any logistic method.

There's also mods that lets you put combat robots in your artillery shells. Combo that with an early artillery mod and an artillery reskin and you should have what you want.
I'm with OP here. Artillery is a great late game option for clearing big areas. Early artillery mods just give you a powerful late game technology as an OP early game tech that is so good it removes combat from the game. Artillery shells are invincible and cheap, they effectively completely remove combat from the game. For late game artillery that is ok, because you have surpassed the challenge aspect of the biters already by then. I rather play without biters than early game artillery, it can't be balanced to be fun.

What you are suggesting is not at all satisfying.

Robot Army is a great concept, it is almost exactly what I would want, if it worked. But it is so buggy that it is completely useless. If it wasn't so buggy it would satisfy a lot of criterion that early artillery lack:

Robot Army scales from early game to late game, with simple and cheap recipes and weak clockwork bots that can handle small biters in the early game to machine gun bots in mid game against medium and large biters and then rocket bots and terminators for behemoths. If you don't research and produce stronger bots then when enemy evolves the enemy will just kill your bots before they do any damage, almost regardless of swarm size.
Early artillery just lets you kill enemy bases from a safe distance, slightly slower but maybe still cheaper and with simpler recipe. The mod maybe even has better range, so it's effectively stronger than vanilla artillery. Shell damage is irrelevant, behemoths spawn from the same 250hp nests that the small biters do.

Robot army resource requirements also scale with the area you want to clear and the size of the nest groups. To kill a big nest you need a big army of bots to overwhelm the enemy. Otherwise even a appropriately strong robot will just never reach the nest because the swarm is replenished faster than the robot can kill the enemy and it gets attacked from all sides and dies.
Early Artillery can slowly pick off nest by nest without ever being stopped. It doesn't matter if the nests spawns counterattacks, they can't defend and prevent damage so they just die eventually.

Robot Army is visually interesting, has rewarding strategic game play loops and is automatable. You can combine robot types or pick a favorite and you can decide on squad size and composition depending on target tactically or just preference. You can order them RTS style to attack a specific nest if you enjoy that and want to make the most of your resources spent on building them. Or you can mass produce them and have them just seek and destroy as soon as a squad (which you decide how large it is) is produced with no input from you. Which is more wasteful of resources since they might not clear nests in the most strategic direction first and might suicide into nests that are too big to efficiently take on. But it is still rewarding if you like automating large scale production (you are playing Factorio after all) and it can be fun to spectate the robots and biters battling out the war and analyzing if your current squad production produces the right composition, size and strength of robots and if it's better halt production and divert resources to research instead at the moment or if you are progressing appropriately.
Early Artillery has no strategic elements and no research, it just wins immediately from the start. It even manages to be boring to spectate since it just slowly removes the enemy bases instead of being an awesome deserved late game achievement that just carpet bombs away all the enemies quickly in an awesome show of explosives.

Robot Army robots can be killed by the enemy before they reach the nests, that's a core feature which makes them interesting to use throughout the game. In that respect combat with a Robot Army has many similarities to how you clear bases with the player character, where the nest size affects which nests are feasible to clear and for how many resources. But it's also automatable on a sliding scale, from remotely controlled RTS style, to general targeting to completely hands off and decided by combinators and assemblers. It's a resource sink that is more interesting than science, labs just give you a progress bar while you can see the war happening on the map and you can step in and micromanage it as much or as little as you want, from RTS to Factorio automated.

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Re: Automate Biter clearing - Robot army

Post by mmmPI »

Turel wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:35 am
This does look interesting. Although it's not quite as free form or fire and forget as i would like XD
Ty for the imput though :)
It may be possible to automate even more with mod like https://mods.factorio.com/mod/equipment-gantry to replicate in RTS how structure produce units over time and you either have a rally point for them or they pile up in front of the building and from time to time you select the group and task them somewhere when you have enough. Some AAI structure allow to deploy "spidertron-aircraft". I haven't really delve much into that but i know it is possible to somehow replicate some function of the robot army mod which i played with quite some time ago.( deploy and dispatch ).

I share most of the "positive" gameplay implications mentionned from the OP and the long post of Qon, but i think they are also somehow related to the critic adressed to AAI in general, is that in order to have the "finest" control fully automated and so on as players could wish, it means giving the player the ability/task/incentive to try and outnumber/outpower biters. Except with potentially terribly inefficient pathfinding. This is because to me as in AAI, the orders for when to update a path, are decided by the player. ( in the robot army mode too i think you can task some robots to change destination as frequently as you want).

This may seem fine for players that have experience with circuits, but even then or when you don't have experience, it's easy to make a mistake in the circuit that would cause say 1000 or more robots to try and path randomly to a different tile on the map every tick, because 2 wires are connected by mistake and now the numbers keep changing all the time. If this was a main feature in the main game, not mods for players that seek those things and don't mind "the stress" of avoiding such situations, there need be ways to make it a bit more foolproof i think. In RTS maps are not "infinite", no matter how "bad" or "good" at massing army and sending them all at once the players are, there is a hard cap of "population" or literally room availble usually. Your ennemy and the risk you monitor are the ennemy side, it's not your own action risk breaking the game.

Such arbitrary limitation for the sake of foolproofing, to me look like how bots do not try to concrete the whole world at once and then stop and then try again if player click. The request are staggered over time with a hard limitation. It is not very popular, and sometimes source of reports due to misunderstanding. It would be worse if people were relying on those for their defense. Biters are managed by the game so player do not see when/if they are not reactive, "dumb", or inneficient in pathfinding. And if they do, it's to their benefit in the fight, they look like primitive animals. Whereas if your robots army freeze every time you retarget a nest at the other end of the XXXXX km² map because you have finally managed to outnumbers the biters in a location, it makes for a not fun experience and yet there would be incentive to do so.

It's quite hard to make a working circuitry for AAI vehicule. Then make it smart enough to defend your base is another level of challenge. And making it UPS efficient is even more difficult.The latter is necessary to achieve for sucessful play. The aim is to "outpower the biters", but with "small" and "granular" unit, not a big OP deathmachine like spidertron would be or an Octotron ? with more legs that can swim too ? such compact and UPS-efficient fire-power, to me seems more likely additions.

Robot army is fun to play with, but it doesn't scale in terms of ressources needed for CPU compared to the function it adds in the gameplay (imo). Most of the CPU i suppose is aimed at simulating the factory. Whereas if you make it so that you have a ratio of 1:1 between defending unit and assembly machines, because you have many small defending units like robots army low tier robots, on a map that is "infinite", then the CPU will be doing more of pathinding and combat related things relative to the factory. And it will be up to the devs to find a way to do something "impossible" such as giving reactive units "RTS" style, to someone who also play RTS and is used to click very fast like 300 time per minutes on the screen on an "infinite map" is already hard enough. But also make it so a random inexperienced player, wanting to have fun with circuit, doesn't freeze the game to death when managing to task all his forces to see all the tiles of the map one by one with a mistake in the order making them not do a spiral but random tiles in the whole map. When to apply the foolproofness so that both players find their share is "impossible" those are mutually exclusive in my mind.

" slow and non-responsive units sucks in RTS, fast and reactive units controlled by noob circuitry are receipe for disaster"

Everyone being a noob at some point. Disaster probabilities are high !

If the aim is to automate biter clearing WHEN it has become tedious to due to the scale, i don't think robot army is going in the 'right' direction. I think it shine more at small scale when you can still "look" at what is happening on the map and see your robots moving, changing the composition and circuitry "for the next wave", i think it would be somewhat "sad" or "a shame/waste" of ressources to use "expensive pathfinder" for units that are in end meant to be gorified artillery shell as in expandable and meant to keep biters away (fire and forget).

Robots army to me would be best in some survivor scenario, of limited space, where you don't want as player to put defense on it but rather production, and so your defense are moving turrets, err robots army. You wouldn't have more and more land, not causing the number of unit to scale dramatically, instead maybe it would be require to make smarter and smarter production and dispatch system to automate the replacing of the units that were damaged or match production with some sensor that predict the composition of the next attack wave. You would care about your robots, look after them, not fire and forget, such units would be not too numerous that their pathfinding be a problem. Player would automate the dispatch because it's more efficient than clickings 300 times the screen per minutes for several hours, not because there are 2000000 units to control.

I would like to be wrong and have those numerous robots to play with on gigantic maps, i think the flying version of those makes it the more likely as it would reduce pathfinding complexity to null. Then they would really be like glorified artillery shell, one way trip to the ennemy, fire and forget, UNLESS they are meant to be preserved, come back to base for repair which is how i used the lex aircraft + spidertron patrol mods. Like armies in rts.

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