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Set chain signals to red via circuit network

https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=58453

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Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:04 pm
by Oktokolo
SilentWarrior wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:38 pm
 But I already know its impossible, currently in the game ... well.. since I cant do it :P
Thats why its a feature request :P
They expect implementing it to cost too much developer time, RAM for additional state and UPS impact.

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:08 am
by 5thHorseman
SilentWarrior wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:38 pm
 Makes sense.

But I already know its impossible, currently in the game ... well.. since I cant do it :P

Thats why its a feature request :P
Yes but to a developer, "That's impossible" doesn't just mean in the game.

Essentially he said "no" to your request. :)

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:16 am
by JasonC
I asked rseding about it in chat a while back and he basically said they "didn't think it would encourage creative gameplay" and so wasn't worth working on. Obviously, I disagree.

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:07 pm
by ssilk
But that's exactly my former argument... :geek:

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:32 pm
by Aru
Just because I want to control a signal with combinators, doesn't mean I don't want it to also be a chain signal. They are not mutually exclusive.

I will give an example where I need to control a chain signal with circuits. I have a 4 lane unloading station, that needs to allow 2 simultaneous paths into and out of the stacker, and into and out of the stops. I want the signals to do what they are supposed to do, which is, to enable the full, theoretical capabilities and throughput of the rail design. This requires the two stackers to fill and empty evenly, using lane changes. I need each stacker to supply a simultaneous train, when two stations simultaneously "ask" for trains. I can read the rail signals going into each stacker lane to see which has more trains in it, and direct the next train to the other one, same for outgoing. (Belt balancing with a splitter, but for rails.) I can put a chain signal before the first split into the stackers, so the train can use the first slot that empties instead of committing to an occupied one. Ideally, the stacker will never fill up completely. But if it does, that signal needs to be a chain signal, not a regular one. It's a little silly to have to bet on the stacker never being completely full, the stacker lanes are there for trains to use them, not to cause improper behavior when the last one is full. But, I can't close this chain signal with a circuit (to keep the two stackers evenly loaded), because chain signals anomalously have the "Close signal" option missing.

I can make these signals behave as desired with circuits, but it requires more combinator complexity, connecting more signals, and controlling more signals, to emulate the behavior of chain signals. It becomes significantly more complex than it needs to be. I want to use chain signals for their usual chain signal behavior, but I also want to close certain paths with circuits. Why have both features in the game but only allow us to use one or the other?

There are several extremely workable solutions for this problem as-is, but none are as straightforward as putting a circuit on the chain signals.

Encouraging creativity is good, but not when it "feels" like you are merely trying to work around a flaw or oversight in the game design or implementation. Someone might wonder, is this a bug? Is it a missing research? Is it just bad design? What is the purpose of this annoying oddity, which prevents me from doing what I expected? It comes off as arbitrary.

Edit: I tried doing this without combinators, but the result was strange, inconsistent behavior, trains would sit at blue signals randomly, sometimes for several seconds after all other train movement ceased, and they refused to use both paths at the same time. Might be a race condition bug.

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:19 am
by ssilk
Sorry, tried to paint a picture of what you described in my head, but have not enough color to complete it. ;) more serious: how long are your trains? How is that connected? How long are the rails? I ask, because I use currently LCC trains and I have made a 6-lane station with about 5-10 seconds hold that is feed by only one rail, and a 3-lane stacker.

With longer trains this is not possible of course. But it depends on the length. And the length of the tracks, how many curves and much more. A screenshot would be useful.

BTW lately I came into a situation where I thought: now such a chain signal would be really useful, but then I found a better solution; I had to rebuild parts of the rails.

Not saying that there is no real need for that or there is always a way to build around this problem, but game-play value .vs. added complexity is really bad for this feature.

Besides that: if you think it’s a bug, then ask (here or user help board), or create a bug report. :)

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:43 pm
by Aru
It's for 1-8-1 trains. The trains coming in at the top left all have the occupied stop set as destination. The signals are wired to block the stacker with more trains in it. In the second image, the left stacker is green (except for the occupied lane), and the right one is red. The trains have all come to a stop, waiting at blue chain signals, and will stay that way sometimes for several seconds before one of them moves. There are never two trains going into stackers at the same time. I load the save in the first image repeatedly, and switch the two trains in front to automatic, the result is different every time, with different pauses and behavior.

The third image shows how the left signals are configured. The right ones have A and B swapped. The signals all seem to show the correct color at all times.
images

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:35 am
by ssilk
Hm. Strange on first view. Do you have also a blueprint of this? Spares rebuilding me that by hand.

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:32 am
by Aru
This is the one in the post.



This one has the rail piece at the bottom removed, it's not needed, and for some reason this enables two trains to come in at once (they should do it regardless). But, they will still sometimes stall at the initial chain signals.



Edit: Looks like it's because the signals are changed by the circuit network, and the trains sometimes take a long time to find a new path. In this image where only the last one is stalled, it has pathed into a red signal.
image

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:29 am
by boskid
I think i went through the whole topic and the only legitimate use case was the safe crossing on a bidirectional rail.
When having large intersection, disabling particular exit can be done with a regular signal, disabling particular entrance can be done with a regular signal followed by the chain signal without any wires. Closing chain signal would be only required when trying to disable particular rail relations within an intersection, like allowing trains to go straight while stopping them before the intersection when they want to turn left in RHD network. I am not sure if it would be possible to get more throughput by closing those particular rails unless there would be a huge intersection where there are like 8 trains going north (for example) when the rightmost one would want to turn left when all the others would want to go straight - but even in that case, circuit network would not be able to read out of signal states how many trains want to go which direction.

Are there any really good examples where closing chain signal would be essential, other than safe crossing?

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:52 pm
by coppercoil
boskid wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:29 am
 Are there any really good examples where closing chain signal would be essential, other than safe crossing?
I had made complex junctions containing several controlled (prioritized) waiting lanes. I enabled/disabled separate lanes (and some expensive local intersections) considering other waiting trains.
I solved it by closing first rail signal on the chain's top. That worked, but it was an unnatural workaround.

I think the question is not "is it essential", but "is it logical". Yes, it is logical to read/control both chain and rail signals, because player-wise they are the almost same.
OT thoughts why both signals are the same

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:05 pm
by Aru
So should I report the bug separately?

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:23 am
by ssilk
Aru wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:05 pm
 So should I report the bug separately?
What coppercoil describes is not a bug. :) it’s a suggestion.

I see that currently so: the devs (or one of them, that has made something with signals) knows about it. That is already a success.

I will move this thread back to suggestions. :)

And what he asks was about a specific example besides this issue, where this is essential. This is a question about how important is it to fix/change it.

But when I go back in this thread there is until now no real evidence for that. There was always some workaround. Not nicely, but it was something which was useable. The reason why it was I n “won’t implement” is, that the gameplay value of this change (rare cases, where it might be useful) versus effort to implement it is really low.

I think if there is an example (in form of screenshot/blueprint) that shows another case of chain signal “fun”, that would be a sign to prioritize this higher.

I know this is difficult (because I have lot of experience but I have no idea for another case).

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:37 am
by Sad_Brother
boskid wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:29 am
 ... disabling particular entrance can be done with a regular signal followed by the chain signal without any wires. ...
Yes, but if regular signal is open while chain is closed the train does step ahead and do not look more at the normal signal.
Rseding91 wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:07 pm
ikarikeiji wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:18 pm
 Suggestion: allow a connected chain signal to be set to red by a circuit network signal just like a regular signal can be set to red.
That is impossible. Chain signals do not have any state themselves. They only relay the state from the signals ahead of them.

You have to set the signal ahead of them to red if you want this behavior. It literally can't be done with how chain signals work in the game now. It's not a matter of adding the circuit logic; it just doesn't exist as a thing.
Even if chain signal has no state itself and so is a function, it does not mean that function cannot include (and so relay) logic input when needed.

By the way...
Great Thanks to all developers for your hard work!
Many Thanks to all mod developers for their work also!
Of course Thanks to all active Forum members!
You are all great!

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:54 pm
by Aru
ssilk wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:23 am
Aru wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:05 pm
 So should I report the bug separately?
What coppercoil describes is not a bug. :) it’s a suggestion.
As I described and showed in my posts, the trains never use both paths simultaneously, even though they are separately signalled, unless a bit of rail at the bottom is removed, which should have no effect. They also stall at the signals sometimes, for 1 or 2 seconds, even though the path is clear and no trains are moving, before they start to move. These are inconsistent oddities in train pathing that interfere with designs.

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:59 am
by Theikkru
Aru wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:32 am
image
I haven't looked at the blueprints, but judging from your description of non-combinator attempts and what I see in this image, I strongly suspect you have encountered this mess.

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:27 am
by KoblerMan
ssilk wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:04 pm
 The reason why I'm still sceptical about this is, that there is no really good reason for that, and that the limitation of this signal can be seen as part of the game. Like that you cannot read and write at the same time from&to a block signal. Nothing which cannot be worked around, and workarounds ae part of the game. :)
Calling your BS on this one. Plenty of reasons have been presented in this thread. It is a very simple addition to the game that will remove the headache from a lot of players, and closing the signal ahead of the chain signal is NOT a solution. In fact, in almost every use case, it defeats the purpose.
<NO_NAME> wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:43 pm
 Sorry but I have to disagree with pretty much everything you've just written. Honestly, it looks like you looking for excuse for why this feature shouldn't be implemented.
I rest my case. Welcome to forum mod input on the suggestions thread - being contrarian for no reason while having ignorance of the utility. :roll:

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:46 am
by ptx0
KoblerMan wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:27 am
It is a very simple addition to the game that will remove the headache from a lot of players
doesn't look that way to me. headache? i love trains, have more than 5800h in game and i have never needed this.

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:14 pm
by KoblerMan
ptx0 wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:46 am
KoblerMan wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:27 am
It is a very simple addition to the game that will remove the headache from a lot of players
doesn't look that way to me. headache? i love trains, have more than 5800h in game and i have never needed this.
Ok, great. But now consider that how you play the game is probably a lot different from how other people play the game. You might never have needed this feature because you design your factory without needing to account for that particular limitation; however, someone else might be punching their monitor trying to find a workaround for something that amounts to a QoL feature.

This is what so many people on the suggestions thread fail to understand.

Also, a signal is a signal is a signal. It makes no sense for one type of signal to have a limitation that the other type of signal doesn't, unless it's a key part of the description (like how chain signals restrict trains from moving into the next block if the block(s) after that are closed). If you can close a rail signal, you should be able to close a chain signal too. Personally I've never really had to deal with this. Though, I can see where people are coming from, and it's very unintuitive.

Re: Set chain signals to red via circuit network

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:09 am
by jodokus31
KoblerMan wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:27 am
It is a very simple addition to the game that will remove the headache from a lot of players
According to rseding it's not sooo simple.
KoblerMan wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:14 pm
 ...
This is what so many people on the suggestions thread fail to understand.

Also, a signal is a signal is a signal. It makes no sense for one type of signal to have a limitation that the other type of signal doesn't, unless it's a key part of the description (like how chain signals restrict trains from moving into the next block if the block(s) after that are closed). If you can close a rail signal, you should be able to close a chain signal too. Personally I've never really had to deal with this. Though, I can see where people are coming from, and it's very unintuitive.
QoL does not equal, that it's good for game. Im thinking of long reach or sqeak through, which add lot of QoL, but are not in vanilla.

Also, I cannot follow this argumentation. "You should be able to close a chain signal too". Why even? I mean it's adding somewhat more options to game and i wont complain if they added it. But you should consider that more options is not always good according to KISS principle.
They rarely add a suggestion, because those must be not only very good, those also have to match the vision for the game. You guys should not feel bad, if a really good suggestion does not make it into the game now. Maybe it gets considered later or needs some adjustments...
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